This is question #5 of a 10 question discussion/debate between Mike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz on the issue of women in ministry. The discussion will take the form of five questions posed by Cheryl Schatz with answers by Mike Seaver and then five questions posed by Mike Seaver with answers by Cheryl Schatz. Each question and answer session will be followed up in the next post by one response each from both Mike and Cheryl. Links to the questions and the responses will be at the bottom of this post.
Question #5 by Cheryl Schatz:
Does God contradict Himself? In 1 Corinthians 14: 1, 5, 12, 24-26, 31, 39 Paul commands all to desire earnestly to prophesy and he gives them all permission to prophesy in the assembly so that all may learn. How could Paul give multiple commands before and after 1 Cor. 14:34, 35 if women are to keep silent in the church? Whose commands are women supposed to obey - the commands throughout 1 Corinthians 14 that command us to desire to prophesy and give us encouragement and opportunity to prophesy in the assembly or a verse that has no link to any known God-ordained law?
Does God contradict Himself, or is it possible that Paul is once again quoting from the letter that the Corinthians wrote him and which has Paul correcting their false view in 1 Corinthians 14:36? Can you please explain how 1 Cor. 14:34, 35 is a universal law for all godly women for all of church history within the context of all the things that Paul has written throughout the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 14?
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Mike's answer:
No, I don’t think God contradicts Himself. He can’t. If he did, he would cease to be God. That would be scary for all of us!
I know what you are meaning though…This is similar to your first question and I think I answer a lot of it there. Paul wants and urges men and women to prophesy, which biblically is different than preaching or teaching. Verses 34-35 are speaking about a woman not judging the prophetic word publically, but she should talk to her husband about it.
Again (to cut and paste my answer to question #1). I think the ESV Study Bible is helpful.
14:34-35 Since Paul seems to permit wives to pray and prophesy (11:5, 13) as long as they do not dishonor their husbands by the way they dress (11:5), it is difficult tosee this as an absolute prohibition (cf. Acts 2:17, 21:8-9). Paul is likely forbidding women to speak up and judge prophecies (this is in line in the immediate context; cf. 1 Cor 14:29) since such an activity would subvert male headship. ‘ Law also says’. Paul is probably thinking of the woman’s creation “from” or “for” the man. (see 11:8-9; Gen. 2:20-24) as well as a general pattern of male leadership among the people of Israel in the OT.
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Cheryl’s response and Mike’s rejoinder will follow on September 2, 2009.
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Links to previous segments of the debate:
Questi0n #1 and Mike’s answers
Responses to Question #1
Question #2 and Mike’s answers
Responses to Question #2
Question #3 by Cheryl and Mike’s answers
Responses to Question #3
Question #4 by Cheryl and Mike's answers
Responses to Question #4
5 comments:
Cheryl writes: "In 1 Corinthians 14: 1, 5, 12, 24-26, 31, 39 Paul commands all to desire earnestly to prophesy and he gives them all permission to prophesy in the assembly so that all may learn."
He gives them all permission to prophecy in the assembly?
Hey Mike, for another position, different also from yours, see:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/women-prophesying.html
Mike:
I assume from what you have said that,like Cheryl and myself,you believe that since the OT prophets and NT apostles wrote Scripture under the divine guidance and superintendance of the Holy Spirit,and therefore there cannot by any contradictions in what it teaches regarding our ministerial duties and responsibilities in the Body of Christ,correct? And according to you, in 1 Tim. 2:12, Paul absolutely forbids women teaching or preaching,whatever the form it is given,in a mixed audience during worship,correct?
Then how do you square that with the teaching gave to the entire church, leaders and congregation, in Colossians 3:15-17? The Apostle writes as follows:
15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdeom through psalms, hymns and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him(Col. 3:15-17, TNIV).
In these three verses, we find a summary of the teaching Paul earlier gave regarding congregational prayer and prophesying in 1 Cor. 12-14. The focus here is on "the message of Christ," which is to be communicated by psalms, hymns and songs from the Spirit,with the purpose being to "teach and admonish one another with all wisdom" (v.16). This text in Colossians clearly indicates that in the NT house churches, psalms,hymns and songs not only praise and thanksgiving to God for our great redemption in Christ, but also served a didatic or teaching function for all participating in the worship service.
And regarding these "prophecies," THE EXPOSITOR'S GREEK TESTAMENT states: "The precise distinctions intended are not certain, and perhaps they should not be sharply drawn. The meaning is, whatever kind of song it may be, let it be made the vehicle of religious instruction and admonition"(Vol. 3, p.541). Like 1 Cor. 12-14, this text not only assumes that both men and women will proclaim or prophesy the message of Christ together during worship, following the directives of 1 Cor 14 which were normative for all the Pauline churches; but it also expects and encourages them to do so, so as to instruct and admonish one another, resulting in everyone becoming wiser in the mysteries of Christ and his Gospel. (Continued in next comment)
Now, Mike,if Paul absolutely forbids women,at all times and in all forms,to proclaim God's Word to mixed audiences during worship in 1 Tim. 2:12, does this not contradict what he here commands them to do in Col. 3:15-17? If one thinks about this critically and logically, one must come to one of these conclusions:
1. Paul, when he wrote 1 Tim. 2:12,had forgotten what he wrote in Col. 3:15-17,and did not realize that he had written two texts that contradict each other. Well, liberals might believe this could have happened; but do we really think Paul was so irrational or forgetful that if somenone had pointed this out to him, he would not have recognized it as an apparent contradiction, and made some clarfying statement,like he did in 1 Cor. 5:9-11?
2. As you and Wayne Grudem argue, Paul made a distinction between prophecy and teaching,the first which he permitted women to do in 1Cor. 12-14,but forbade them to do the latter in 1 Tim. 2:12. Well, the problem with this argument is that several NT scholars-e.g., David Hill, Earle E. Ellis, and Kevin Giles-who have studied this subject in detail, have demonstrated that the NT does not make the rigid distinction between teaching and preaching(prophecy)that we moderns make. After all while Jesus is often called a prophet, the NT primarily focuses on his teaching and preaching. And even prophets like Silas and Judas preach to and exhort congregations on the basis of God's Word revealed to the Jerusalem church (Acts 15),rather than on new revelations they themselves have received. So denying women the right to proclaim God's Word in the congregation on this basis of a supposed distinction between teaching and prophecy is totally unwarranted.
3. Paul's instructions in 1 Cor.12-14 and Col. 3:15-17 are normal guidelines and regulations regarding how men and women are to instruct, encourage and build up one another in the Lord during worship. But, as determined by its context, 1 Tim. 2:12 is a special ruling, addressed to an unusual or abnormal situation that existed in the Ephesian church. This being the case, 1 Tim. 2:12, because it is not part of Paul's normal guidelines and regulations for worship and ministry,cannot be used as a regulatory law to deny women's right to full participation in worship and ministry today.
So, Mike, which of these three conclusions is the most biblical and logical for us to hold, if we truly believe Paul wrote under the guidance and supervision of the Holy Spirit, and if we also believe that there can be no contradictions in the true teachings of Scripture?
You say that God does not contradict Himself.
Well, then do you believe that God asks us to sin?
I suppose so. After all, He asked Deborah and Huldah to sin.
Judges 4:4-7
“4 Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’”
2 Kings 22:12-20
“12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Acbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the Lord for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the Lord’s anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.” 14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District. 15 She said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 16 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the Lord. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’” So they took her answer back to the king.”
Oops.... DON'T READ THOSE!
If you do, you will sin as they are the prophesies of women!
Any man that reads these words aloud in the church is also sinning since he is subjecting the congregation to the prophesies of women.
King Lemuel also did men a disservice in Proverbs 31 by immortalizing the teachings of God through a woman, his mother, for other men to burn their eyes reading. ('Cause I don't think women would get as much use from the council on what kind of wife to find. Good for modeling oneself after the ideal wife; but this is council on what kind of wife to look for. Clearly, it was teaching meant for male eyes. It is unfortunate that God originated the teaching from a woman. Now men can never get the council without sinning. A mother can teach her son; but she is unable to teach other men. Immortalizing this teaching sends it to other men than her son to read.)
“It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” Phil.1:15-18
To me these verses also fully demonstrate that Paul was not nearly so concerned about >who< was preaching, so long as it was Christ that was being preached. He even rejoiced about it!
John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."
But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.
For he who is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward." Mark 38-41
"Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead" Matt. 28:7a
Nothing Jesus says here indicates concern over the gender or hierarchy of those ministering the truth. It is the Message that's important - not the messenger.
"yet not I, but Christ" Paul wrote.
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